A Home Recording Perspective

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08-09-2002, 11:11 AM
rayh

A Home Recording Perspective

On the FDP they have a Home Recording page which is pretty informative. However, a lot of the things they discuss involve recording equipment that is priced out of reach of the average guitarist. It will be cool if members of this forum are able to help each other keep it simple. I'm amazed at the sound quality and total lack of noise that digital recorders are capable of.
Where home digital recordering and the Internet will lead is anyone's guess, but I'm looking foward to it.
Any other opinions are welcome!
08-09-2002, 12:55 PM
Ed Driscoll

Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Ray,

Quote:

Originally posted by rayh
On the FDP they have a Home Recording page which is pretty informative. However, a lot of the things they discuss involve recording equipment that is priced out of reach of the average guitarist. It will be cool if members of this forum are able to help each other keep it simple. I'm amazed at the sound quality and total lack of noise that digital recorders are capable of.

I certainly don't mind if people want to write about going into the studio with two or three 24 track recorders synced together, and George Martin producing their next album, with Eddie Kramer doing the engineering!

But back in the 80s, I made fairly decent sounding demos with a Tascam Four-Track, a Shure SM58 mic, a Roland 707 drum machine, two Yamaha SPX-90 effects processors, a Boss mixing board, and a Rockman guitar processor, and a Yamaha synth.

These days, I get infinitely better sound with Cakewalk Sonar XL 2.0, Line 6 GuitarPort, a Tascam US-428 USB mixing board, a Midiman Oxygen 8 USB keyboard, and the same Shure 58 mic. (I still have all of the above gear, which will probably get used from time to time for a variety of sounds), although I'm happy to dump the 707 for loops and SoundFont based drums). Outside of the computer (which can also handle all of my word processing, email collection, Internet surfing, PhotoShopping, etc., etc.), that's probably a grand or so worth of software and equipment--and it's capable of fabulous stuff. if a song sucks, it's tough for me to blame the equipment!

Ed
08-09-2002, 01:04 PM
Ashcaster

I too used a tape 4-track throughout the 90's. Wore that poor thing out after about 10 years of pretty constant use. Sound quality wasn't great but I kept it simple and had fun. And it's the songs that count.

Now I've got a Korg digital 12 track, music editing software on my PC, CD burners, etc. And I don't find myself using it half as much as I used that little Fostex. I dunno why that is, but it was somehow just more fun to crank up a cheap little amp and stick a cheap mic in front of it and record to tape. Now I've got digital amp simulators, expensive mics, compressors, etc. and it's almost like the increased complexity takes some of the fun away.
08-09-2002, 01:16 PM
rayh

Think of this: Instead of just talking about how great your favorite guitar or amp sounds...we'll be able to share it with thousands of other enthusiasts.
I can't wait to get another place where I can set up my recording equipment.!
08-09-2002, 01:58 PM
Ed Driscoll

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashcaster
Now I've got a Korg digital 12 track, music editing software on my PC, CD burners, etc. And I don't find myself using it half as much as I used that little Fostex. I dunno why that is, but it was somehow just more fun to crank up a cheap little amp and stick a cheap mic in front of it and record to tape. Now I've got digital amp simulators, expensive mics, compressors, etc. and it's almost like the increased complexity takes some of the fun away.

I view recording on the PC as having a different kind of complexity than the four-track.

Back in the 80s, I used the four-track both as a sketch pad, and to make demos of songs. The former was easy: record a drum track, and then noodle around on guitar and/or keyboard. For the latter, in order to get a remotely decent sounding demo (decent being a relative word of course) out of the four-track, here's what I would go through:

1. Record sync pulse to track one
2. Record scratch drum track to track four
3. Record scratch guitar to track three
4. Record bass to track two
5. Record keyboard to track four or three, erasing whatever was on there
6. Bounce keys and bass to remaining scratch track
7. delete first generation keys and bass tracks
8. Record final rhythm guitar
9. Record vocal, solo, and anything else I could fit on final open track.
10. set-up for mix down, with drum machine synced to sync pulse for stereo drum track, SPX-90s for gated snare drum (it was the 80s, gated snare drums were the law, and it did make the drum machine sound a little better) and reverb.
11. Repeat mix down until something halfway decent sounding emerges.

So much of that crap is elimanated by recording into the computer. Punch-ins sound cleaner, all of the tracks sound cleaner because they can be edited to within an inch of their lives, they sound tighter because you can see the wave files and move things around, and any bouncing is indetectable. (So far, I've mostly bounced to simplify mixdown, not because I've run out of tracks!)

Vocals and leads can be manipulated anyway that can be imagined. I have as many tracks as I want, short of the processor coughing.

Oh, and if I want to use it as sketch pad, I can just load up a drum loop or two, and noodle around and record, and then save the file like I would a Microsoft Word file--and because it's named, as opposed to being in the middle of an audio cassette, I may even find it again!

Other than the difficulty of having to learn the computer program (and I'm still definitely learning), recording on a PC has really revitalized my interest in making my own music--I can't imagine going back to the four-track again.

Ed
12-03-2002, 02:24 PM
tombuur

Never even owned a 4-tracker, had to use two 2-trackers back in the 70's ...

Well, now it's Cakewalk Sonar 2. I have had a look at the alternatives, but find this one the easiest to use. Works fine with a consumer soundcard like Soundblaster, though I now have a M-Audio Delta 60 card with Delta Studio.

It's amazing what you can do with this. Some programs can turn cords into a midi based backing. To get more realistic sounding drums I use audio based drum loops. Not too good at playing bass, I just keep on looping till I got a small section right on the bass guitar, then cut and paste where I need it. Etc. etc.
09-01-2003, 11:53 PM
chuckocaster

rayh,

i feel your pain about the fdp home recording forum. i got totally dissed on it except for one instance. but anyways, i posted some in ed driscoll's post. put i use four tracks at home. i love it. i think it is fun to come home and like ashcaster said, crap up a little crap amp and make some records. sure the stuff from my home studio doesn't sound great, but hell, it is so much fun to just go for it. i laso have access to some awesome facilities when i want too. but when i come home from mixing bands live. i just like to cut loose and work ideas out. then later i'll go into a real studio and make it sound all pretty and such... but man, there ain't nothing like 60 cycle hum, tape hiss, and crap mics to make a home record sound cool.
09-02-2003, 08:38 PM
BLUELOU

RECORDING

LOL i still use my ol 238 tascam since 92 tape deck its good enuf for me i really have alot of tweakin with compressors or trim on board i love alesis studio 32 board its sweeps great and its 32 inputs 32 outputs and digital capable headroom wise works fine for me lmao i got this humungug rack of 80's rack gear i kept i dont kno why but i am used to my old ok VERY OLD lexicons lxp5's etc ok lmAO today they got great equipment recordingwise out there so portable all my stuff shoud be donated to the fossil museum someday for sound artifacts lol
man i feel old lmao\

lou
just wanted to say tape is still rollin
09-14-2003, 07:44 AM
pbradt

Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by rayh
On the FDP they have a Home Recording page which is pretty informative. However, a lot of the things they discuss involve recording equipment that is priced out of reach of the average guitarist. It will be cool if members of this forum are able to help each other keep it simple. I'm amazed at the sound quality and total lack of noise that digital recorders are capable of.
Where home digital recordering and the Internet will lead is anyone's guess, but I'm looking foward to it.
Any other opinions are welcome!

I must hasten to add that ProTools Free is still available. Granted you're limited to W98 or Mac OS9 for using it, but it *is* available. I did a number of song and band demos with it on a Mac and while it had some limitations, you really could record decent stuff with it.

I have an MBox which, while kinda spendy, does a terrific job. However, there are other units available, either USB or pci cards, that give you 24/48 inputs (usually two) for as little as $200.

Now I grant that you have to have enough computer to get the job done but there are easy and inexpensive (even free) solutions for computerized recording.

And once you can do a bounce wwith no generational losses, you'll never turn back.
11-19-2003, 06:33 PM
grito

Pbradt. Since moving and dismantling my home studio, I've been thinking of going digital. I'm just a sketch pad recorder. I run an Apple Ibook, any ideas on cheap recording equipment? I only need to record 2 tracks at a time...
11-20-2003, 08:46 AM
Bongolation

Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by rayh
On the FDP they have a Home Recording page which is pretty informative. However, a lot of the things they discuss involve recording equipment that is priced out of reach of the average guitarist.

Try r.a.p sometime! Great info, but not geared toward budget equipment.

I got a thread DOBed on the FDP Home Recording page because I recommended that a user try an inexpensive LDC microphone that was on closeout extremely cheap, not because it was the greatest LDC, but because it would improve the quality of the specific sort of recordings he was doing with a cheap dynamic and it was within his very small budget. It was an effective and cost-efficient choice for this guy and one of very few selections he could afford.

The selection was immediately and roundly dissed by people who admittedly had never tried the microphone, simply because it was inexpensive, and they all started recommending microphones that were several times the cost of the guy's stated budget. I pointed out the folly and irrelevance of these posts and got so much angry abuse from the offenders that the thread was killed.

This is what happens to me nearly every day when I try to help people on these forums who ask questions in good faith. Third parties who have no information beyond their prejudices and uninformed "opinions" shout me down.

Some of the worst offenders from the FDP are over here now doing the same sort of thing to people.

You just put up with this for as long as you can and then quit, which is what I'm probably going to do for a while, I think.

A sort of "Gresham's Law of Participation" takes effect. Garbage posts drive good posts out. I've noticed that guys I know to be real experts don't stay long on these fora - virtually never for more than a week or two except in extremely technical engineering and design discussions that by their academic natures intimidate the ignoramuses from intruding.

Sad...

I wish I could find some more tightly controlled and limited-access discussion groups where this sort of thing didn't happen.
11-20-2003, 09:06 AM
photoweborama

Re: Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by Bongolation

Man, you crack me us sometimes. I know you don't try, but I just love listening to your stories that start of so innocent and end up with people threatening you with AK-47's.

On a different note, with my Peavey keyboard/PA amp, the only mics that would not cause excessive feedback were the $9.99 Nady SP-1's.

Of course, I just sold the amp and all the mics... They also had a really faint hum, so they did not work for recording.
11-20-2003, 09:18 AM
pbradt

Quote:

Originally posted by grito
Pbradt. Since moving and dismantling my home studio, I've been thinking of going digital. I'm just a sketch pad recorder. I run an Apple Ibook, any ideas on cheap recording equipment? I only need to record 2 tracks at a time...

How cheap is cheap? I got my MBox for $400 on Ebay and the mic pres, while not the best, are adequate.

Which IBook are you running? What speed, how much RAM, OS9.X.X? OXS? etc.? What you buy is often dependent on your platform.

Because you don't have PCI slots on a laptop, you're limited to USB or FW as your interface. The MBox is USB. Here's one on Ebay

Tascam makes one but I don't know anything about it.

MAudio makes one too but again, I don't kn ow much about it. I DO know thjat if you want to use PT, you jave to use Digidesign hardware. All of these things some with some sort of recording software.

One of the reasons I use PT is because I really find it to be intuitive AND a friend in Nashville uses the same version I do (albeit a higher-end interface) so if I have a question, the answer is easy to get. I also like the interface. Some think PT sucks but for better or worse, it appears to be the industry standard.
11-20-2003, 09:41 AM
Bongolation

Re: Re: Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by photoweborama
Man, you crack me us sometimes. I know you don't try, but I just love listening to your stories that start of so innocent and end up with people threatening you with AK-47's.

That's never happened, and when you know me better you'll understand why. :) Usually it's more a yappy little dog barking its head off kind of thing.

Anyhow, I am just anathema to a certain kind of person and unfortunately it's a type that's very common on online dicussions these days.

I expect that your Nady experience had to do with its low sensitivity and narrow bandwidth. I think I have one of those things around here, too. I got it with some other minor items to fill out a minimum order for free shipping with Musician's Friend a while back. Figured I could use it for something eventually, but I don't think I have. I tested it and don't recall any noise, but I could be wrong. It at least worked.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience with the AKG when that kid finally coughs it up.
11-20-2003, 11:24 AM
photoweborama

Re: Re: Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by photoweborama
threatening you with AK-47's.

That was an exaggeration, but on other forums, it is a possibility...
11-20-2003, 02:29 PM
grito

Quote:

Originally posted by pbradt
How cheap is cheap? I got my MBox for $400 on Ebay and the mic pres, while not the best, are adequate.

Which IBook are you running? What speed, how much RAM, OS9.X.X? OXS? etc.? What you buy is often dependent on your platform.

Because you don't have PCI slots on a laptop, you're limited to USB or FW as your interface. The MBox is USB. Here's one on Ebay

Tascam makes one but I don't know anything about it.

MAudio makes one too but again, I don't kn ow much about it. I DO know thjat if you want to use PT, you jave to use Digidesign hardware. All of these things some with some sort of recording software.

One of the reasons I use PT is because I really find it to be intuitive AND a friend in Nashville uses the same version I do (albeit a higher-end interface) so if I have a question, the answer is easy to get. I also like the interface. Some think PT sucks but for better or worse, it appears to be the industry standard.

I was looking to spend about $500 bucks to get a nice recording rig. I have an iBook SE with 286mb ram, 466 mhz processor. It has both the USB and Firewire connections. I didn't even want to go with a mic, just layer some guitar through my POD and add some drums. Does the Mbox come with software? What's PT? Is the Mbox and some software all I need?
11-21-2003, 12:00 AM
pbradt

Quote:

Originally posted by grito
I was looking to spend about $500 bucks to get a nice recording rig. I have an iBook SE with 286mb ram, 466 mhz processor. It has both the USB and Firewire connections. I didn't even want to go with a mic, just layer some guitar through my POD and add some drums. Does the Mbox come with software? What's PT? Is the Mbox and some software all I need?

The MBox comes with ProTools (PT) LE (Limited edition) and it'll be fine and dandy with your Pod.
11-21-2003, 12:22 PM
Cogs

Re: Re: A Home Recording Perspective

Quote:

Originally posted by Bongolation
This is what happens to me nearly every day when I try to help people on these forums who ask questions in good faith.

Perhaps you might consider your approach. You can come across as being pretty unflexible sometimes.
11-21-2003, 05:59 PM
fezz parka

I would suggest Pro Tools Free (8 Tracks Of Audio) and the M-Audio MobliePre that Pete suggested above. It'll get you going for 150 bucks...
11-21-2003, 06:26 PM
pbradt

Quote:

Originally posted by fezz parka
I would suggest Pro Tools Free (8 Tracks Of Audio) and the M-Audio MobliePre that Pete suggested above. It'll get you going for 150 bucks...

On the Mac, PT Free is limited to the OEM audio hardware. I've tried to use other hardware without success, using PT Free.

I don't even know what audio hardware the IBook has but I would make damned sure that PT FRee would interface before I did that. In addition, PTFree is limited to OS9.

If you want something other than ProTools, I'd say get the MAudio box and Digital Performer. However, given the "mission profile," whatever software comes with the interface of Grito's choice will probably be adequate. Almost all of those USB (and other audio interfaces) come with something that will be adequate as a sketch pad.
11-21-2003, 06:54 PM
fezz parka

Well, Pete's right. After going blind looking at the Digidesign site, I found this:

PT Free Stuff I'm not even sure the MBox will work for you.

Get Deck LE 3.5 and the TASCAM US 122 Pete linked above. It'll do the job.

Deck
11-21-2003, 09:04 PM
pbradt

Quote:

Originally posted by fezz parka
Well, Pete's right. After going blind looking at the Digidesign site, I found this:

PT Free Stuff I'm not even sure the MBox will work for you.

The MBox comes with ProTools LE. If he buys that, he won't need Free.

Quote:

Get Deck LE 3.5 and the TASCAM US 122 Pete linked above. It'll do the job.

Deck

For that money, he can get an MBox and PTLE does 24/48, whereas Deck you're limited to 16-bit. Also, with PT, it's really scalable. You can upgrade to a Digi002 and use the same software. So if our friend Grito decides to do the one man band thing like I've done, all he'll need is a decent mic for his vox, a drum program (I recommend Doggiebox for OSX) and a bass.
11-22-2003, 02:21 PM
grito

I'm putting my analog stuff on sale. I'm planning on picking up an MBox...
11-23-2003, 02:35 AM
pbradt

Quote:

Originally posted by grito
I'm putting my analog stuff on sale. I'm planning on picking up an MBox...

Don't hesitate to ask any questions if you have them. I've had mine almost a year and have made a lot of mistakes.

My email's always on.
11-23-2003, 02:43 AM
chuckocaster

i still like analog, i like the sound. trust me i work in three pro tools studios. not that i don't like digital, it is just different.
11-24-2003, 10:52 AM
fezz parka

Quote:

Originally posted by pbradt
The MBox comes with ProTools LE. If he buys that, he won't need Free.

For that money, he can get an MBox and PTLE does 24/48, whereas Deck you're limited to 16-bit. Also, with PT, it's really scalable. You can upgrade to a Digi002 and use the same software. So if our friend Grito decides to do the one man band thing like I've done, all he'll need is a decent mic for his vox, a drum program (I recommend Doggiebox for OSX) and a bass.

There's a strong possibility MBox/PTLE won't work properly with his laptop if he has an older iBook. In fact the iBook SE 466 is not recommended.

Cubasis for Mac comes bundled w/ the US-122 (so you don't have to get Deck), is about 200 bucks, which is way cheaper than a MBox/PTLE package. It's the best bet to get his sketchpad going on the computer he has now. Upgrade the computer, it's a whole different ballgame.

MBox/iBook compatibility...
12-04-2003, 09:06 AM
grito

Would the resolution really have that big of an effect though?
12-04-2003, 11:20 AM
fezz parka

You won't be able to take full advantage of the program @ 800x600. I'd only get the mbox/PTLE if you were planning on upgrading the computer...
12-04-2003, 12:19 PM
doc540

Hey, fezz, how's the gain and tuning on those new files I posted last night?

Just curious.
12-04-2003, 02:48 PM
fezz parka

Lookin' good doc! I'm goin for tabletop and gonzaga bay....
12-04-2003, 03:06 PM
doc540

cool!

Stand'em on their heads if you need to.

btw: I joined the music site where we busted the TOP TEN, BA'BAH!:D